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Talk:Mjolnir Powered Assault Armor/Mark IV
Image Many of you may know how I feel about this particular issue, but for the moment, I'm going to have to ask you to suspend your own opinions for a while and listen. The issue I'm talking about is of course what the Mk IV really looks like. I know you all have your own theories and whatnot, but because of those theories, you're all missing the point. In the event of a canon conflict, we at Halopedia don't decide canon. We decide which canon is more well supported within the realm of the Halo universe. So to begin. The dispute settled initially on the cover to the Cole protocol which was later revealed to look completely different from the Spartans of Halo Wars fame. This made people argue. Somehow, people settled on the CP version. I'm going to fight for the other side. First off, the Cole Protocol armor is a piece of concept art. That's it. It wasn't divinely handed down by Bungie. It was painted by an artist with a very loose set of guidelines in order to capture the feel of the book. That said, I still believe its canon. But not for all Spartans. No. You see the Spartans in the book were VERY different from other Spartans with a very different mission profile. They likely had different armor, just as Halo 3's Mk VI armor permutations were made for different jobs. Of course this is conjecture but as I'm about to explain, that explanation is likely the only way that the Cole Protocol version can be counted as canon. You see, our current policy on canon clearly marks games as higher canon than books. (Halopedia:Canon Policy - go there, it's great!) Yet we still hold the Cole Protocol image above Halo Wars. First off, that's incredibly stupid and un-halopedian. Secondly, the Cole Protocol cover has nothing to do with the book's canon, it's ARTWORK. It is separate from the book's information, story, and canonicity (I think you spell it that way?). Many of you people say that we should trust Bungie's book (via Subtank: "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"). And to many of those people, I wish to inquire about your mental state. The book came from a (relatively new) author who had access to the Halo Bible. Halo Wars also had access to the bible (via Frankie). The art came from a contractor hired by Tor to paint a Halo picture. Where is Bungie involved? NOWHERE. That's the beauty of my argument. And since when does canon have to do with a book's art rather than its story anyways? Yet even though we have this hammered out, for the sake of argument, I'm going to concede to the fact that HW is a third party game, just as the books are third party literature. Yet even thought that theoretically puts them at the same level at BEST, our policy still makes no distinction that a third party game is less than a Bungie game. It groups all games as one. One place higher than literature that is. You see, Subtank had a conversation with me earlier about whether Halo Wars information about a vehicle or the Encyclopedia's contradictory information should be kept. We decided that even if both sets of information were from third party companies, what mattered was that games have always ranked higher than books. Always. Halo is a game first and foremost after all. Anyways, moving on. It's interesting to note that the Spartan silhouettes in the Halo: Reach poster have Mk. IV armor more like that of the Halo Wars armor. This is concluded by finding the placement of the vents. On all armor suits in the series (including the ones on the Reach poster) the cooling vents are on the shoulders. Yet Cole Protocol shows Mk. IV armor to instead have vents on the chest, contradicting *GASP* official Bungie concept art. And I think Bungie concept art beats not-Bungie art! The last piece of the feud is that Halo: Legends keeps the Halo Wars suit in mind when introducing its main character Cal. She has (almost) exactly the same armor as red team from HW. I think this is the nail in the coffin folks. We have a cartoon AND a game AND some Bungie teaser art supporting the HW armor. And we don't even have a BOOK describing the Cole Protocol version, we instead have a piece of concept art on its cover. Thank you friends for hearing out my well-meant rant. I'm sorry it took so long but please discuss your opinions below. It is my dearest wish to rectify this situation ASAP. --Nerfherder1428 01:20, November 9, 2009 (UTC) Outstanding, superb, brilliant. Those are the three words that come to mind, along with all sorts of other accolades and affirmations. However, there is more information from the encyclopedia that is very enlightening on this very subject. On pages 88-89, it describes the "Twenty-Five Years of Development" in an ecompassing way. "More than just a suit of armor, MJOLNIR enhances the Spartan's physical performance nad also contains an onboardd artificial intelligence network that is neurally linked to the wearer. Because MJOLNIR Armor is so reactive, it can only be worn by a physically augmented Human such as a Spartan-II; an ordinary person would injure themselves. Dr. Halsey spent over twenty-five years working on upgrades to the armor, and created many variants and models of the six different generations of MJOLNIR technology: Marks I, II, III, IV, V, and VI." What this passage tells us is very important; each Mark/Phase of MJOLNIR is not a singular suit, but rather an entire generation or line/lineage/array of suits with multiple variants and entirely different models, all of which are still part of that particular generation, be it Mk IV, V, or VI. That would mean different suits, like that worn by Red Team, Team Omega, and Cal-141 are one particular model of Mk IV, while that seen on at least one Grey Team Spartan, as seen on the TCP cover, is another model or variant of a model, but are all still Mk IV. They are all valid, with the Mk IV being present in multiple distinct forms and variants. As for the Mk IV itself, the book describes it well; "The Mark IV was the basis for all MJOLNIR designs. Eschewing the tank-like appearance of the previous models, the Mark IV allowed for direct user-control thorugh a neural interface that connected with the wearer's spine. The Mark IV did not feature many of the later advancements of the MJOLNIR line-it still did not have Energy Shields or magnetic holders for grenades, and it had a very limited radar unit- but it did feature a built-in fusion reactor that allowed for nearly unlimited movement. Rumors originating from the planet Ariel have claimed that there were more advanced prototypes of Mark IV in the field, including architecture for Energy Shields and perhaps even in-suit technology, but such reports have not been confirmed by ONI." In other words, the Mk IV served as the foundation upon which Mk V and especially the VI improved upon, and that different models, variants, and prototypes of the Mk IV generation existed through that generation's twenty-plus years of service before the implementation of the Mk V and VI. And that wouldn't just be limited to functionality; the MJOLNIR worn by other Spartans in the other Halo: Legends episodes such as "Homecoming", "The Package", and most significantly "Prototype", show suits strongly but not entirely, similar to the Mk VI. The major differences, especially in the case of "The Package", is that the armor possesses many features that the Mk VI does not have. The helmets are more primitive and jagged in appearance, as are the suits themselves. There is also a sort of "spine" on the back, and the armor panels are generally flatter and chunkier than the overall smoother and lean parts of the Mk VI. In short, they are clunkier, flatter, and rougher analogues or even precursors to the form that the Mk VI would take. So I'd say that we have a very decisive message being sent by 343 Industries about this issue, and what we see in Halo: Legends; rather than mere artistic license, the MJOLNIR suits seen are different models, variants, and even evolutions of the Mk IV generation/line/lineage over time that serves as the functional, technological, and aesthetic foundation that goes to the Mk V and ultimately culminates in the Mk VI. (P.S. Nerfherder1428; that armor is not fully identical to the Mk IV seen in Halo Wars and Legends, but is chunkier and rounder. It is the first glimpse at the visually updated "true" form of the Mk V, rather than the graphically and aesthetically primitive character model from Halo 1. Hopefully, it won't be a rehash of the failed "Mk V Redux" piece by Isaac Hannaford. That looked like a deformed, obese Mk VI pretending to be the Mk V.) This is my multi-paragraph contribution to this issue. I will contribute more when I have time. Have a good Thanksgiving. Kig-Yar meat for all! --Exalted Obliteration 02:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::There are two problems with the initial argument. First the concept art for the Cole Protocol was not done by Tor. It was done by Isaac Hannaford with help from Lorraine McLees and Isaac's signature is viewable on the shoulder pad of armor; therefore that makes it Bungie Art. The second is the fact that Halo Legends as a whole is one big artistic interpretation, there are things that legends get wrong right down to the basic level (example: if you take a good look at the female Spartan from "The Package" in the behind the scenes preview for legends her MJOLNIR chest plate clearly defines that the armor is for females ((Boob Plates)) when we know for a fact that all MJOLNIR suits are unisex and cannot be distinguished.) ::On the other account there is no evidence to support that any of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach poster are wearing the Mark IV. And I'm willing to go out and say you're wrong on that assessment considering the recent leaked pictures indicate they are wearing the Mark V or something similar. With the Reach poster however it is premature to make a judgment on a undefinable silhouette. Durandal-217 03:32, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :::Indeed Durandal, you bring up some good points. I was unaware of Lorraine McLees' involvement in Hannaford's drawing. Still not sure that a book cover has anything to do with the canon information of the book, but for now I'll submit. Agreed that Legends is an artistic interpretation and that Reach is premature, but once again my friend, you have a videogame that supports this. The rest, though somewhat assumed, are supporting details. As for the leaked screens, if you look carefully, the hand plate in first person actually looks like that of Halo Wars Spartans. Just sayin'. (Aha, I forgot it was you friend, that so vehemently argued with me over the Cole Protocol's version a few months back. Will you again stand in the face of reason now that we have a few more sources?) :::As to Exalted Obliteration, I agree completely that this armor has its own variants. You bring up an amazing set of valid points. And I completely agree that BOTH sets of known armor are canon. (Yes I realized that Legends is only just similar to the Halo Wars version. That we agree on.) However, right now, I'm trying to discuss which of the known armor versions we should have as that first picture. In essence, I'm trying to show which version is more well supported, which I've undoubtedly (I think) proven to be the Halo Wars version.--Nerfherder1428 11:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::::I would like to point that the Canon Policy states Halo Games are the superior canon than other media provided that they are produced by Bungie employees directly, thus explaining why I refer "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's". Halo Wars was supervised by Bungie in terms of plot/canon issues/advices on developing the story but the design of the Mark IV was left to the artists' interpretation and not by Bungie. Also, note by the first point of our Canon Policy which states Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public. If we were to apply the reasoning test: ::::1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by Bungie. ::::2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Ensemble (or, to be more specific, Blur Studio) ::::3. Canon Policy dictates Bungie Employees are highest canon. ::::4. Thus, Mark IV in TCP is of higher than Halo Wars. ::::Toodles. :) - 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 12:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :::::Plus, we can't really regard the visuals in Legends as canon; in "The Package" video, the Spartans are wearing a what appears to be the Mark VI, while they're obviously supposed to have the MK IV at that point. Even Frankie's stated it multiple times in the HBO Forums that most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, at least not with the MJOLNIR armor, because "otherwise they'd be stuck with the H1 graphics", or something along the lines of that. Personally, i don't see a problem with the H1 design. Anyways, the TCP version makes more sense, even canon-wise; it actually looks like something that would predate the MK.V, instead of being a some kind of odd hybrid between the MK.V and VI. But like Frankie's said, most of the time, aesthetics aren't canon, not in 343's productions at least. The same applies for other things, such as hair in the anime, etc. Also, i think the armor in Reach looks more like the H1 design than the HW one, even having seen the leaked screens. But with the canon policy, there's really no problem. --Jugus 13:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Actually Madam Subtank, the canon policy just says HALO GAMES. Yes the description states that this is because they're made by Bungie, but the title makes no distinction between bungie games and ensemble games. Check again. And Ensembele's Halo Wars certainly wouldn't fit within the "other media" section (literature, soundtracks, and other media), nor would it be grouped in the "Bungie Affiliate" section (referring to employees outside of games and books via interviews etc.). As it is also not "Halopedia canon", where exactly does it fit? Answer me that riddle? Why do you not think it is grouped with the games? If you don't, I'd have to say our current policy (once again) needs to be updated to include references to Halo Wars. ::::::So let's revise. ::::::1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by an artist named Isaac Hannaford, ASSISTED by a Bungie Employee for ideas. ::::::2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Blur, overseen by Ensemble, ASSISTED by Frankie O'Connor(though admittedly not much)-then Bungie employee. ::::::3. Isaac Hannaford is no Bungie employee. Saying the TCP pic came from a Bungie employee because Lorraine McLees assisted in brainstorming ideas is like saying ANY book, trailer, or video game retains "Bungie Employee" canon status because they also were kept in line by Bungie Employee advisers. Would you place the Fall of Reach (or its cover) in the "Bungie Employee" category? No. You'd put it in the "Literature" category. Simple concept. Also, Hannaford had lots of freedom with the picture he created anyways. ::::::4. Your arguments prove nothing. Even if you counted both Halo Wars and TCP picture on the same canon scale (Literature, soundtracks, and other media), Halo Wars would win out because it's a GAME. Games beat books. Always. Employees beat games, but once again, the TCP is not in the Employee section, it's in the literature section. ::::::As for Jugus, I COMPLETELY agree that Legends is ALL artistic license. I think that the people picking out that particular point are misunderstanding me. I'm just saying that even if it IS artistic, at least the HW version still has SOME resemblance in another work.--Nerfherder1428 22:56, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :::::::Isaac Hannaford is a Bungie employee. Hes been working there for more then 4 years. Durandal-217 23:02, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::Then I'd like to formally redact my statements regarding his employee status. :D Yet even still, our Canon policy points to things falling under Employee canon to be things released in interviews etc outside of commercial products right? Or else the games and Contact Harvest would be in the Employee canon sections. Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. Again, the games wouldn't have their own separate canon listing if that was the case. So once again, wouldn't the cover count towards literature?--Nerfherder1428 23:14, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Please refrain from using Capslock. If you wish to stress a word or two, use WORD. Also, please perform proper research to support your argument in the near future. Anyway, back to the discussion. :::::::::Issue #1: Canon Policy and Where Ensemble's Game falls: Ensemble's Halo Wars would fall in between #2 and #3 but more towards #2. Note that under point 2 of the Canon Policy states that "video games was produced by Bungie employees directly" whereas point 3 of the Canon Policy states "Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio". So, in all, Halo Wars' plot and storyline as they were supervised by Bungie would fall under #2, however, the artistic freedom such as the design of units, vehicles and scenery/landscapes would fall under #3. Never assume the content as whole (Halo Wars is not produced only by Ensemble. They are in charge of the gameplay. In terms of designs, they made a contract with various animation/technical studios such as Blur Studio - Refer to my "Reasoning Test"). Instead, dissect every details of that content and try to determine which place they fall under. :::::::::Issue #2: Regarding Novels and Authors and where they fall under the Canon Policy: As per above, Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. This is not really an issue but Contact Harvest will still fall under #3's Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media even if it was written by a Bungie Employee. It is the status of the media/product that matters but not as whole. Elements/Details of the product still matters and it is up to us to analyse and conclude where they fall under... but as always, we don't determine what is canon and what is not without concrete proof/support/evidences. The Canon Policy should only be referred to settle disputes on determining what is canon and what is not. Halo: Contact Harvest, written by Joseph Staten, had no major inconsistencies up to this day, thus being irrelevant to this discussion. :::::::::Conclusion: The Canon Policy is still in perfect condition and there is no need to update it. If needed, we would require advice from Bungie/Frankie of 343 Industries. Never consider a product as whole. Dissect every detail of a product. Some details in one product might contradict another detail in another product. Such example would be the ODST's BDU in H2 and H3. Analyse the origin of the product and question Who made it? Is it Bungie or is it by someone else, When was it made? Was it before or after the official release? and Was it supervised by Bungie or did the artist had some freedom?. Final note: Research!- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 00:03, November 10, 2009 (UTC) :::You all bring interesting points, but what concerns me is that no Source has said which one is canon.(If I am wrong please give me a link to the source)Sith-venator Wavingstrider (Commlink) 03:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::Both images/designs are canon, but based from what I've analysed, Bungie's design is of higher canon than Ensemble's.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 14:48, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Well, judging by the armor of the Spartans in the Halo: Reach opening cinematic, it looks like we have our definite answer on this now. The Cole Protocol version is canon, and Halo Wars version is not. --TDSpiral94 04:15, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Really? Since when? Beyond one's biases and inferred reasoning, where is the proof that such a statement is undeniable fact? Unless this is confirmed by Bungie and/or 343 Industries, that seems like too hasty of a conclusion to make. Also, aren't you aware of what the encyclopedia suggests on this matter? It states that the Mk.s' of the MJOLNIR series are a distinct generation of powered armor, within which exist not only attachment-based "variants" of the standard model, but multiple models, each likely having the same kind of variants. This would mean that the Mk. IV, which had been in service for nearly 27 years, would have been upgraded consistently over the course of that time while still being of that particular generation before it is ultimately superseded by the Mk. V and VI generations in late 2552. For more information, check what I wrote at the start of this long thread, and the page numbers from the encyclopedia. Perhaps someone should send Frankie an email. --Exalted Obliteration 05:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :Frankie has no involvement in Halo: Reach as he is no longer part of Bungie. Similarly, 343 Industries does not have any involvement in Bungie. The correct person to contact would be Joseph Staten.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 14:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC) Heres' something to consider regarding this debate that I just found; TEAM LEADER AND MASTER CHIEF 2-PACK http://spawn.com/toys/product.aspx?product=4100 This pretty much confirms that the Halo Wars Mk. IV is canon, and at least implies that this version is the initial form of the armor. As of TCP etc., it is quite likely that it was upgraded and even refitted before the advent of the Mk. V in late 2252. That means, in other words, that we see the Mk. IV in different stages of evolution before its ultimate retiring in favor of the Mk. V. --Exalted Obliteration 04:56, December 15, 2009 (UTC) :Or, the action figure manufacturers just picked the version with most references available. The HW Mk IV and the TCP version are so vastly different it's hard to believe they'd be two versions of the same model. I don't see how a statement from an action figure company makes it canon anyways; since when have they had control over canon? --Jugus (Talk | ) 06:45, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Very true on the point that the toy maufacturer does not decide canon. I will retract parts of my statements to take that into account. However, one must consider where the information that the 2-figure pack will contain comes from. This did not come purerly from the manufacturer; it came from those who are in charge of the franchise and the canon itself. That information came from Microsoft and 343 Industries themselves, who own the rights to the Halo franchise and truly decide what is and is not canon. The fact that they gave the information in question to the manufacturer and what iteration of the Mk. IV to use says a great deal. It pretty much says that as far as Microsoft and 343 Industries are concerned, the Mk. IV depicted in Halo Wars and by extension the anime short "The Babysitter" are valid, and more specifically, valid to the earlier conflicts of the Human-Covenant. Does this mean that the TCP version cannot coexist with what is clearly the stance of the present owners of the franchise, or that it is either that version or that one? Not at all. As of Halo 3 armor permutations, ODST, and now Reach, it is made abundantly clear that the suits can be customized, upgraded, modified, and even refitted beyond their original forms and specifications. As to your other point, that it is hard to believe that there would be two different versions of the suit, that is a very valid point that has yet to be truly resolved beyond the conclusions and informed opinions of the knoweldgeable members of this wiki such as yourself. But we must also remember that we do not truly decide what is and is not canon; that is truly determined by those who own the franchise and its canon. If we owned the franchise, then we could, but since we don't, our determinations beyond our analyses, citations, etc. do have limitations in certain instances, with this being one of them. So how might this conflict be resolved without throwing out one version in favor of the other while respecting the canon, the attendant scale, and the fact that canon in this franchise is in constant state of flux, especially in the context of its literature, which has been revised and retconned repeatedly, contradicting assumptions made before revisions were introduced. Though I do not have exact familiarity with every last little bit of Halo literature made to date, I do remember many of the things that relate to this particular debate. Indeed, the books early on did imply that there were only static, rigid, largely unchanging suits of Mk. IV that had few alterations, and that there was a great deal of difficulty in distinguishing each Spartan from another just by looking at their armor. However, that has been overturned like many things from the earlier novels, and now it has been shown that MJLONIR can be altered and even evolve over time to the point that it may bear little resemblance to its initial form and specifications. For a system that has been in service for nearly 27 years and serves as a testbed and foundation for its successors, it seems unlikely that the it would stay static and unchanging for every moment of its service, especially since it is the least capable and durable of the three deployed MJOLNIR lines. Given what the war would have required of the Spartans and their armor, it is at least quite plasuible that the early basic model would have had notable shortcomings that would be fixed or at least addressed with the issuing of superior components, the freedom to customize and modify, and perhaps even armor and refit kits that would be used to replace the earlier and/or inferior components and armor that the Mk. IV originally had. If you compare the Halo Wars and TCP version together, it can be seen that the former provides less coverage, looser and thinner armor, and looks very "fresh" compared to the latter, which is worn in, tighter-fitting, better covered and armored along with being customized to some degree, it seems clear what is being shown; the standard model is significantly upgraded and refitted to function better in combat and different environments without being a separate or succeeding model of Mk. IV, and looks different from what it originally did. In other words, the Mk. IV evolves and adapts to overcome its original and inherent shortcomings before it is eventually replaced by a superior model, the Mk. V. Of course, this is only speculation at best, but it is an effort to try to come up with a plausible and reasonable explanation for the discrepancy in question without resorting to extreme statements and snap-judgement, sweeping and hyperbolic conclusions. Inevitably, true clarification can only come from the parties involved; Bungie or statements from Micrsoft and 343 Industries. --Exalted Obliteration 05:00, December 16, 2009 (UTC) :::Microsoft nor 343 Industries tells McFarlane what to produce. The only thing Microsoft or 343 does is provide them assets to ensure accuracy of the product in question. Its release has absolutely nothing to do with legitimacy of canon. :::Action figures are produced purely for collection purposes, based on either consumer demand, or the company refreshing its line to keep the brand fresh and consumers buying. Durandal-217 16:25, December 16, 2009 (UTC) We really need to revise our canon policy. Now that 343 own the IP, the only subjects Bungie can and should make a definitive statement on are those directly pertaining to their current project, Reach - after this point, any material that comes from 343 has to be regarded as higher canon status than Bungie. Its not something I like - like a lot of us, I'd rather Bungie remain a free company and keep the Halo IP, rather than one or the other, but if a devils dowry must be paid for their independence I'm glad that Microsoft at least had the sense to set up a separate internal team to oversee it, and that they hired at least some ex-Bungie employees. -- Administrator Specops306 - Qur'a 'Morhek 05:07, December 17, 2009 (UTC) :It should at least be decided when to consider the aesthetics canon and when not. Because 343 seems to be pretty big on this "artistic license" thing, so you'll never know what appearance is actually canon. --Jugus (Talk | ) 06:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC) ::343 Industries has been so vague and inconsistent that until they come to a solid conclusion, nothing they do should be taken higher then a grain of salt. However as of this moment Bungie is still involved with Halo, and as Subtank has gone over before, in any and all cases, anything that Bungie does with Halo is, and always will be considered a higher source of canon simply because they are the creators. ::When the hand off between Bungie and 343 Industries occurs, then its going to be a real roller coaster. All I can hope for is that they cut the crap and start getting consistent with story and design. Durandal-217 07:47, December 17, 2009 (UTC) :::Thank you, Durandal-217 for that explanation. :D - 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 13:31, December 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::You're welcome Subtank. Durandal-217 20:33, December 17, 2009 (UTC) Excellent. So the debate has finally been settled once and for all. The Bungie-designed Mk. IV is the true one, and the Halo Wars and Legedns depictions are mere artistic liberties, or in other words, non-canon fakes/facsimiles. I hereby rescind any arguments that would favor or even attempt to justify the validity of the canonically-inferior facsimiles peddled by 343 Industries that I have made in the past. This also confirms what I have suspected recently; all visual and graphical assets that are not designed by Bungie themselves are mere artistic liberties and are therefore non-canon fakes and facsimiles. Until 343 Industries and Microsoft use Bungie-only visual assets, we can safely conclude that nothing that they depict that is not directly from Bungie are artistic liberties that are non-canon. This and other articles should make that clear. --Exalted Obliteration 22:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC) :I must say I am in agreement until Bungie no longer has rights to make games under the Halo IP. After that, I believe that canon must be decided by 343 as heirs to the franchise. As much as I don't like it, I know we're going to have to do our best to uphold that standard. :Something I must add though is that we can't say for sure whether or not the armor suits in the Reach trailer are Mk IV or Mk V. It honestly looks like a mixture of both and could be either one. Let's not jump to hasty conclusions. MC got his armor a day BEFORE the battle of Reach and this Nobel squad is seen right at the beginning of the battle. I don't think it's beyond reason to think they'd be wearing Mk V. Not to mention that the leaked screens show shield bars, a feature introduced to MJOLNIR via the Mk V. :Also, even though the suits are very alike, they're not exactly identical to the Cole Protocol variant as previously stated. The fusion reactor vents that are found on the shoulders of all MJOLNIR variants appear on the chest of the CP armor. There are also a few other minor differences, most of which are surely artistic misrepresentation in nature.--Nerfherder1428 22:37, December 17, 2009 (UTC) Correct on all but on count. The Mark IV is not fully identical to the Mark V armor worn by Noble Team and the other Spartans at Reach. It is somewhat boxier and more primitive in appearance than the Mark V, so it is obvious that there would be differences between the two. The "vents" that you refer to are actually merely part of the armor detailing, more specifically the non-colored portions of the armor. This can be found in the armor diagram of the Mark VI in the Halo Encyclopedia. If they were actual vents, we would see cooling gasses coming from them, which we don't even see in the Halo: Reach cinematic. It is clear that the symmetrical dark armor detailing is a feature seen in the Mark V and VI. The fact that the Mark IV doesn't have it is further visual proof of its inferiority to its successors. --Exalted Obliteration 02:58, December 18, 2009 (UTC) This entire line of thought to me at least looks piss weak saying that what the Mark V'' armor (as noted leak screens show shield bars) looks like has anything to do with what the mark IV looked like to me seems ridiculous. Like we could use what appearance of a Tiger II to determine what the Tiger I should look like. It's even more outlandish to me given the ever increasing number of depictions that go against the the Cole Cover and support the Halo Wars version. To toss all of that away as "artistic license" based on the fact that ''Mark V suits shown in Reach look vaugely, but only vaugely, like the Cole Protocol image just to me defies all logic. We could just as easily note that the armor in Halo Reach acutally looks radically different then any other models we've seen, made by beloved Bungie no less, so different that it almost looks to belong to a different design lineage. Indeed it only vaugely resembles the Master Chiefs Mk.V suit itself. For all the talk about how 343 is 'vague' in there art I'd LOVE to see the hoops you boys are gonna have to jump through to try and explain how what we see in Reach and what we see in Halo 1 are the same armor. I also frankly notice a worrying and irritating trend throughout this comment string in which poster seem to be more or less prostrating themselves at the feet of the mighty unfailing all knowing Bungie. Get real people Bungie has produced and put out plenty contradictory images and information over the years and it's not anymore infallible then 343 is or will be. I've always found this slavish obsession with the cover art of the novel a tad baffling though honestly. The prevailing view seeming to be that the a throw away piece of art for the cover a novel only a tiny fraction of fans will probably read (just look at sales figures) would somehow be MORE accurate and subject to MORE oversight then the images used in absurdly expensive pre-rendered cutscenes in a major game release. No one seems to even consider that the process for approving the TCP cover was "eh looks good enough, print it". They seem convinced there must have been some exhaustive and well thought decision that THIS is how Mark IV looked, and not that a artist just hastily adapted an old concept image for the cover one afternoon, showed it to a few people, and then moved on. On the flipside they seem totally willing to accept that when it came to produce a multi-million dollar game and then when contracting out millions more to Anime studios the approach was basically "lol we don't give a shit do whatever!" Clearly it's absurd to think that they'd acutally give more specific art direction to the people they're paying millions of dollars too with the end result being to produce a series of images that, while not exact duplicates, all look very similar, and nothing like the one outlier on the cover of the TCP. No all of that is outlandish and stupid since the TCP image, despite being a single outlier different from all other deceptions of Mark VI, is vaugely associated with Bungie and so of course means it's 100% correct.--TK3997 22:15, December 20, 2009 (UTC) ::When you can get to the point, without writing a wall of text, insulting those who believe otherwise, then I will at least give you the satisfaction of a reply. Durandal-217 00:08, December 21, 2009 (UTC) Wrong Image Ok I don't think people realize that the main image for the Mark IV is the Gray Team variation. It has some sort of parts on the shoulder and there's a combat knife. This is not seen on the other variations. I think that the main image that is to be shown should be the Halo Wars version. All the Spartans in Halo Wars have the same armour and even Cal's armour looks like this. EchostreamFanJosh The Package I know it was probably cosmetic but in the package, when we saw the view of John and Fred, the HUD was exactly like Halo 3's Mark VI armor, i.e. it had a shield indicator. Are we sure it was Mark IV and not Mark VI. Guardians-117 21:25, December 13, 2009 (UTC) :The armor designs in Legends are artistic license and not canon according to Frankie. And we can be sure it's notthe Mark VI, using common sense. Mark VI wasn't around back then; the Chief got the Mark V the day before the battle of Reach.--Jugus (Talk | ) 21:38, December 13, 2009 (UTC) "Artistically-Liberal" Okay, normally I'm all for differences in opinion, but this has got to stop. Right now. I don't care if the Cole Protocol version is of "higher" canon status - implying that the Halo Wars and other similar versions are totally non-canon and unofficial, despite the fact that Bungie obviously signed off on Ensembles design by allowing them to use it, is out of line, and makes us fans look childish and petulant. They're different variants - if that doesn't solve any problems that are had, then nothing will. -- Administrator Specops306 - Qur'a 'Morhek 07:39, December 21, 2009 (UTC) :Thank you! The Halo Wars variant shouldn't be totally outcast and called non-canon because the cutscenes were developed by Blur. --TDSpiral94 08:00, December 21, 2009 (UTC) ::Though it should be taken into account that Blur most likely modeled the armor after the models seen in-game, which were in turn designed entirely with gameplay in mind; that is, giving them exaggerated features to distinguish them from other units. It's pretty apparent, looking at the chest and the shoulders. And I doubt a studio hired to do cinematics for a game would really consider the canonicity of their work; they just worked with the material they were given. But I have to agree we can't just dismiss that as non-canon, as we don't get to decide that. ::I think the main reason to this debate is that the TCP armor actually looks more like the Mark V; not exactly similar, but something that could be its earlier version; as it's supposed to be. The Halo Wars version is so radically different it looks more like the Mark VI than a precursor to the Mk V. In fact, there is hardly any similarity other than the helmet. The angular design of the TCP armor is clearly closer to the Mark V. I think this is what makes people think of the TCP armor as more valid. Plus the fact it was made by an artist who's worked with these covers for years (AFAIK); as opposed to the people at Blur, who just got an assignment from Ensemble to do the cinematics for HW.--Jugus (Talk | ) 08:11, December 21, 2009 (UTC)